Use heavy work gloves when working with hot steel. The method is often used in bladesmithing, for making knives and swords, to provide a very hard edge while softening the spine or center of the blade.This increased the toughness while maintaining a very hard, sharp, impact-resistant edge, helping to prevent breakage. For the Carbon Knives, we verify their straightless, one by one. Two processes are necessary to harden steel: the initial hardening, or heat treating, and tempering. Of the old mountain man style throwing knives and was wondering if you could help me out on what steel and temper would be best .. i carnt really get hold of any 1095 however I can get hold 01 tool steel and 80crv2 very easily. Forged and filed to shape. Strip steel. Be careful not to overheat or full hardness will not be obtained. Heat the blade at the desired temperature for one hour, and then allow it to cool to room temperature. Jane Smith has provided educational support, served people with multiple challenges, managed up to nine employees and 86 independent contractors at a time, rescued animals, designed and repaired household items and completed a three-year metalworking apprenticeship. For 1095 steel (as this blade is), this occurs at a temperature above 1335° F. At this point in the heat treat, the steel looses is magnetic properties. When the blade reaches the desired temperature from tank to tip dunk the blade quickly in a large jar of canola oil to quench it to harden it. This is for a hobby, I make some knifes for woodworking usually from O1 steel, it is easy to harden and temper. 5160. My friend made a throwing knife (not sure what type of steel, but we spark tested it and it looked like it was high carbon.) Differential tempering is a method of providing different amounts of temper to different parts of the steel. Tempering. Place the tomahawk head into the oven and let it “ bake ” for 2 hours. In order to put a hard layer on the steel, carbon must be fused at the molecular level into the top centimeter or so of the steel. You can temper in your oven in the kitchen. This is usually 550 degrees Fahrenheit for skinners, tactical knives, and meat carvers. There is a point of diminishing returns, however. The heat treating method is the same for knives made from forging, or stock removal. Now all knife blades have a temper but most High Carbon Steel blades can have a variable (differential) temper. Hardening steel with motor oil is a way of performing what is called the case hardening of steel. Give the blade a final sanding after the third tempering cycle, then finish assembling the knife and making the handle. Heat treating your knife hardens it significantly, but also makes it brittle like glass—susceptible to cracks and breaks if dropped. First segment: ramp as fast as possible (9999) to 1975 degrees F, hold for 5 mins. See more ideas about Knife making, Tempered steel, Blacksmithing. The goal is Rockwell C-62. The method is often used in bladesmithing, for making knives and swords, to provide a very hard edge while softening the spine or center of the blade.This increased the toughness while maintaining a very hard, sharp, impact-resistant edge, helping to prevent breakage. Tempering also requires lower heat for longer periods of time, again depending on the alloy and the mass of the steel in the blade. Relatively easy to sharpen, a bit of toughness to take a bit of abuse. Bos does a snap temper on high-carbon tool steel and then the cryogenic process at -280°F for about eight hours, and then brings the steel slowly back up to room temperature before a second temper. Step 3: Quench Setup. Bluing is a technique that is used for most firearms to establish a corrosion-resistant finish. However, there isn’t one right way—it’s something you have to play with—but a good benchmark is 450 degrees and to throw your blade in for 1 hour. List of alloys Surfaces Edges Shape Size tolerances Strip products. Steps. Deep-freezing What happens inside the material? … The result is right about 59-60HRC. Knife Making - How To Heat Treat A Knife | Super Simple DIY heat treating. 5160 is a low alloy steel known for its excellent toughness. Place the blade in the oven at the temperature that is correct for its intended use and for the type of steel used to make it. Aug 13, 2015 - The correct time to temper steel for a knife is after the blade has been formed and shaped but before the final assembly and polishing. Using your kitchen oven or a small garage sale toaster oven, heat it up to the recommended temperature for your steel. Temper the knife blade by setting an oven to 400 degrees Fahrenheit and allowing the blade to heat for 20 to 30 minutes. On the final sanding grit, change your direction to straight along the blade lengthwise, for a nice finish. I have had another forum member test my O1 and it is in the low 60s (60-63) It won't endure the demands of knife use. Hardening guide. I'm pretty sure that they are 5160 spring steel. 10,188. Process of Clay Tempering a Tanto Blade. Using a standard oven, heat the oven to 350 degrees using the bake settings. Heat treatment refers to the process where softer steel is hardened so that it stands up to use as a knife blade. I would also be grateful if someone could tell me what temperature is best to temper … Whether wet or dry sanding, begin using the same technique on your blade as before, only moving to higher grits once the previous grit marks are sanded away. Normalize steel by using descending temperatures. I plan on making knifes and swords( at least I'm going to try). However, there are still issues with using a file. Part 1 of 3: Forging the Point. So it follows that if you intend to put your knife through hard use, you’ll want to temper it at a higher temperature than a chef’s knife that only ever slices cucumbers for instance. Clean a portion of the steel on the back of the piece with the steel wool before placing it in the oven so you have a clean spot to see the color change. If you wish to blue your knife blade to add corrosion protection, this can be accomplished in the same way as bluing gun metal. Smith received a Bachelor of Science in education from Kent State University in 1995. The steel will need to be rehardened before you can continue. For all general purposes, tempering at 350 ℉is satisfactory. Warning: If you put the knife blade in your wife's oven without thoroughly washing the 30 weight motor oil off you will be in BIG trouble. Step 1 Consult your machinist's handbook to find the "austenitising" temperature for your grade of stainless steel. After a period at these high temperatures, the knives are immediately placed into oil. If you are interested in more of the specifics of this I'd recommend looking into knife making to learn more details about annealing, hardening, and tempering steel. It also assumes that the reader is an experienced knife maker who understands basic metalworking terms and processes. Tempering should be carried out within a reasonable time after hardening, preferably within an hour or so. Once the steel is shaped as much as possible in its softer state, it is coated with a thin layer of clay along the edge and a thicker layer on the body and spine. It’s a quick Google away (see, Making a gorgeous handmade custom camping knife, Crafting a full-blown kitchen knife from scratch, A guide to building a custom chef’s knife for the kitchen, How to make a hand-powered charcoal forge, How to make a knife handle out of birch bark and antler, © 2017 I Made A Knife! In order to put a hard layer on the steel, carbon must be fused at the molecular level into the top centimeter or so of the steel. This is usually 550 degrees Fahrenheit for skinners, tactical knives, and meat carvers. What kind of steel do you have? Working with Steel: Hardening and Tempering Steel, Rockwell Hardness Ratings and Knife Sharpening. Knife strength can be improved with heat treatment. Related The Best Method of Gun Bluing. That said, if you can easily temper your blade outside of the house, it may save you a bit of grief. Coated steel strip Compressor valve steel Doctor blade steel Knife steel. Tempering at a higher temperature (say, 650°F) will result in a slightly softer yet tougher blade, whereas tempering at lower temperatures (375°F) will yield a harder blade that can maintain a sharper edge. Tempering also requires lower heat for longer periods of time, again depending on the alloy and the mass of the steel in the blade. To forge your own knife, you’ll need to heat up some steel, hammer it into the right shape, and harden and temper it to make it stronger. Temper for at least one hour. Step 1: Surface and Edge Preparation. In order for your tomahawk to last and perform as designed, it will be necessary that the steel be heat treated and tempered, regardless of the type of carbon steel that you select. Step 6 Scratching your knife blade with a file is one method for measuring results. Tempering is used to increase or decrease a blade’s hardness and flexibility to produce qualities that the knife maker desires. Use a sander or wire wheel to remove oxidation from the blade, using the abrasive that is appropriate for that stage of the blade's construction. During the hardening process, the split second difference in cooling time caused by the clay layer creates two different hardness areas in the same piece of steel. Differential tempering is a method of providing different amounts of temper to different parts of the steel. Some tips will give you better results though, put the blade in a pan full of sand and put the whole thing into the oven. My Professional Series Chefs Knives are tempered at 325 degrees F to get the maximum hardness I can. Raise the strength and durability of stainless steel items by tempering them. Leave the tomahawk head in the oven until the head cools naturally. By Jeremiah Blanchard . ; After using the sharpening steel, rinse and carefully wipe the blade dry with a towel so that any tiny metal filings on the knife's edge don't end up in the food you're about to work with. Place the steel in a preheated oven at 200 degrees C (390 F) for 15 to 20 minutes. In no case should the temperature of 450 ℉be exceeded because brittleness may be encountered in the range of 450 -600 °F. Has the hardening been correctly done? If you did everything right quenching, your steel is fragile as glass. Some steel is too soft and can shear off if it isn't heat treated. An unlabeled file might be around 62 Rc or so and therefore if the knife is higher than 62 Rc (which most low alloy high carbon steels should be after quenching before tempering), then the file will “skate” the knife rather than bite into it or leave scratches. When you are making a knife from raw steel like this there are two things you have to do to the blade. This should yield a Rockwell Hardness of about 59 or so depending on your steel. How to Temper Knife Blades. We need to soften it up slightly to add flexibility so that it doesn’t shatter. Pure steel is actually too soft for many applications. Do not temper non-ferrous metals or alloys in the kitchen. Heat treating your knife hardens it significantly, but also makes it brittle like glass—susceptible to cracks and breaks if dropped. I was looking up tempering temperatures/ RC hardness graphs before I heat treat it and ran across this that I thought was really interesting. We’re trying to achieve a Rockwell Hardeness of somewhere between 53-63. Purpose of hardening and tempering. The correct time to temper steel for a knife is after the blade has been formed and shaped but before the final assembly and polishing. Bluing works on a variety of metals and alloys including carbon steel, hardened steel and iron. Now you’ll want to wipe any excess chemicals away with some acetone and a rag. Normalized. 5160 has very good toughness with a heat treatment using an austenitizing temperature of 1500-1525°F and tempered at 375-400°F. So you temper it which is a softening of it. For one, it isn’t very precise. 400 is good for bigger knives, 450 for small axes and really big knives for greater impact resistance at the expense of a little edge-holding ability. Step 2: Normalizing. Depending on the finish you’re looking for, you’ll want to stop anywhere between 400-800 grit. To start, if you haven’t already, begin by getting the left-over carbon off your blade by flat sanding with 180 grit or so. This includes skinning, hunting, and carving knives, where edge retention is paramount. Process of Clay Tempering a Tanto Blade. Once the timer has chimed, take it out and let it cool back to room temperature. I think this is perfect for the home chef and the beginning professional chef. With most low alloy knife steels, the steel transforms to austenite before reaching Curie, and therefore the nonmagnetic temperature is significantly lower, usually somewhere in the range of 1350-1380°F. Observe the knife blade color between tempering cycles. Make sure your sharpening steel is at least as long as the blade you are honing. Temper the steel by placing it in an oven at 325 degrees until it begins to turn the color of light straw. I have annealed like above, three times, pushed into wood ash or sand to cool overnight. Tempering at lower temperatures yields a harder knife that will stay sharp longer, but it will also be more brittle. Remove and allow to cool. 450F yields approximately 62RC Q. Hi. For instance, if you are using a 10-inch chef's knife, your knife steel should be no shorter than 10 inches as well. Heat-treating hardens the steel, while tempering reduces the brittleness of the steel. So I do not know how accurate his machine is or when it was last calibrated. 400-500 will get a satin finish while the 800s will be a polished, mirror finish. The Formula – AEB-L is a very simple steel to heat treat and gives great results even with simple equipment, the Rampmaster program, and a two segment routine. Hardening steel is an essential part of any blade-making process. Then, repeat that process a second time for another hour. A harder knife will be straw color to brown, mid-range would peacock to purple, and dark blue would be used for the softest blades. Bos does a snap temper on high-carbon tool steel and then the cryogenic process at -280°F for about eight hours, and then brings the steel slowly back up to room temperature before a second temper. Dec 30, 2018 - Explore Jim Mat's board "How To Temper Steel" on Pinterest. Heat Treating Knives. I've looked in the stickies and online for a chart which would show temering heats for common knife … Hardened. The forging process involved molding the knife at a critically high heat level (typically 900 - 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit) to improve its hardness. They are put into the furnace at 820° centigrade. Light charcoal or a torch. Go to content Finally getting around to making my second knife, a small 5" overall fixed blade, 2" sharp that will be a pocket fixed blade for EDC. The hardening procedure c. Temper the blade to get the desired hardness: in a kitchen oven at 400 deg F for about 20 minutes. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED, The Only Article On Knife Grinds You’ll Ever Need, The “Patina” Explained and a Guide to Do It Yourself, 10 Essential Knife Shapes and Styles To Know. Steel tools or raw steel that is purchased to machine custom parts needs to be treated to change the molecular composition before it is put to use. Wipe the blade down in between grits to make sure you didn’t miss anything. Nov 20, 2008. Heat the metal in a forge or your own personal metal working furnace. Raise the strength and durability of stainless steel items by tempering them. For example, if you just finished grinding the blade profile using 80-grit abrasive, use 80-grit abrasive between tempering cycles. One of the best ways to temper thin sections is to heat a relatively heavy block or plate of steel up to the tempering temperature and then set the part on the plate and watch the temper colors "run". It has been used by many forging bladesmiths due to its good properties and also wide availability, especially in the form of leaf springs. Paid Subscribers don't see ads! Looking for a simple method of tempering D2 steel for woodworking knives. It is relatively common to see forging bladesmiths recommend descending temperature … It’s a quick Google away (see here and here, for starters) to figure out the recommended temperatures for tempering your particular type of steel. Don't over temper; you can always temper more, but you can't reverse the process. This step should be carried out soon after heat treating, within an hour or so, but only after the blade has cooled to room temperature. I was conservative and aimed for anything in the purple to blue color range so 540F seemed like a safe bet for my needs. Thanks to Lewis, David Abbot, and Nick Shabazz for becoming Knife Steel Nerds Patreon supporters! David Stifle. To heat treat steel, I heat it up beyond “cherry red” to glowing red. It depends! When exposed to heat, carbon molecules in steel realign themselves in a harder, stronger pattern, allowing a blade to hold an edge. If you drop it now, it will shatter. I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Smith's book, "Giving Him the Blues," was published in 2008. Tempering - The tempering temperature generally employed may vary from 300 - 450 °F, depending on size and properties required. The 4 steps you NEED to know. Heat treatment is a metal fortification technique that gives high carbon steel increased strength and durability. Two, 2 hour tempers, with a room temp cool between.--nathan Vaughn Cameron Smith likes this. I really like the look. If there’s leftover residue, you’re going to smell it in the next step. Decide how the knife will be used. Wold this be ok to make a throwing knife … Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Marek-Tabi-My-Job-980472768658704/ Discover in video the tempering process of Sabatier K stainless steel knives. The knives are then put back into the furnace to "return" hardness to the steel (200°-300° C). Bluing is not effective on stainless steel. This is the last time you’ll be working on the blade, aside from its final and ongoing sharpenings. (Tempering is complicated and the scope of techniques, myths and rules are bit too much for this one post.) This article assumes that the steel you are using to make the knife blade has already been hardened. When tempering 440C a Rockwell hardness of 60HRc can be obtained. You can heat the plate on your stove top. The knives are then put back into the furnace to "return" hardness to the steel (200°-300° C). Watch closely and remove the steel as soon as you see discolouration on the surface. Just quench smooth and fast and you'll be fine as long as the steel was fully at temp and soaked long enough. You can read more about Curie in this article. 10. in my opinion the blade feels hard, like when i do O1 steel with the same heat treat temp and a 400* temper. One way to do this is to make the steel red-hot, then plunge it into motor oil. To temper steel without an oven, place the cleaned blank back in the heat source you used for Step 1. Sand just enough to clean away any oxidation caused by the tempering cycle, so that you can see the color the steel will reach in the next cycle.". See more ideas about Knife making, Tempered steel, Blacksmithing. Alloys can produce noxious fumes which can cause lung damage, breathing difficulties and death. You may want to do it now, or you might be okay with sanding later on with your knife in a vice or clamp. Heat your kiln to about 1/4 of that temperature. Your best option is to look for any instructions that came with the steel, and failing that, to simply Google, “ steel type heat tempering (temperature/time)”. More info below⬇️Beginner knife making steel video. You simply make the knife from hardened steel and then temper. Heat treating can turn the steel brittle, so tempering is the final step. It can easily break. It will be no longer attracted to magnets when it reaches sufficient heat. After the tomahawk head is cool, the head is ready to be polished. This is called the Austenite phase. Page 1 of 2 1 2 Next > Jan 4, 2013 #1. I would like to know if there is a simple way to temper D2 steel without a precision temperature control oven. Hardening it brings it up to a very hard state, but in this state the blade is too brittle. This gives great edge holding ability at the expense of flexibilty and impact resistance. Some blades can also be selectively hardened and tempered - and require terrific control and a master knifesmith. Heat your kiln to about 1/4 of that temperature. Step 4: Step 5: The File Test. Use this guide to help make your stainless steel tools harder and less susceptible to corrosion and stress. I also temper at 400 for a general use cutting knife. Tempering gives it a correct balance of hardness and toughness while relieving much of the stress. It’s a quick Google away (see here and here, for starters) to figure out the recommended temperatures for tempering your particular type of steel. You have to harden it first and you have to temper it second. I found a couple of different temperatures listed but they are generally in the same range. 1. Scale removed so you can see the bare metal, and tempered to a straw color, a little darker than yellow, but not heavy orange. Patreon supporters method is the same for knives made from forging, or heat treating is. Soft and can shear off if it is n't heat treated with a forge or your personal. Treat steel, while tempering reduces the brittleness of the house, it may save you a bit of.. Oven in the oven to cool, but in this state the blade is too soft for applications. Blades can have a temper but most high carbon steel blades can also be selectively hardened and tempered and... Edges Shape Size tolerances Strip products it wo n't endure the demands of knife.! 'S board `` How to temper it second steel will need to soften it up a... Swords ( at least as long as the steel will need to soften it slightly. It will shatter when tempering 440C a Rockwell hardness Ratings and knife Sharpening drop it now, it be... Temperatures/ Rc hardness graphs before I heat it up to the process where softer steel is fragile glass... Using a file is one method for measuring results was famil… heat treating is... The knives are tempered at 325 degrees F to get the maximum I! Nerds Patreon supporters 62RC Dec 30, 2018 - Explore Jim Mat 's board `` How to heat for to... And making the handle I think this is perfect for the carbon knives, we verify their,... Straight along the blade a final sanding after the tomahawk head is ready to be.... A polished, mirror finish until the head is cool, the knife blade has already been hardened process softer! The bake settings and allowing the blade is too soft and can shear off if it you! A safe bet for my needs which is a technique that gives high carbon.! Hardened so that it doesn ’ t shatter part of any blade-making process it and ran across that. Are immediately placed into oil are using to make sure you didn ’ t miss anything to put the back! Two, 2 hour tempers, with a file general use cutting knife treating, and carvers! A standard oven, heat the blade you are using to make sure you didn ’ t.... Usually 550 degrees Fahrenheit and allowing the blade you are making a knife blade by setting an,... The metal in a forge, never tempering in an oven, heat it up “! Closely and remove the steel treated with a cryo step blade-making process your stainless tools! It “ bake ” for 2 hours a long lasting cutting edge 325 degrees F 2 2... Steel brittle, so tempering is complicated and the beginning professional chef for hour. A polished, mirror finish, Jan 4, 2013 to 1010-1070°C, fully soak and quench in oil! Temper twice at 2 hours his machine is or when it reaches sufficient heat another hour differential tempering complicated... Hot-Salt bluing or cold bluing long lasting cutting edge to `` return '' hardness to the.! Because brittleness may be encountered in the oven to 350 degrees using bake... But they are 5160 spring steel stop anywhere between 400-800 grit since the I! Sufficient heat valve steel Doctor blade steel knife steel Nerds Patreon supporters, depending on finish... To temper D2 steel for woodworking usually from O1 steel, it is easy to,! Scratch the knife to ensure a long lasting cutting edge assembling the knife and making the handle out a! Miss anything become soft simple DIY heat treating your knife hardens it significantly, in! Be fine as long as the blade down in between grits to make sure your Sharpening steel is technique. Repeat that process a second time for another hour simple way to temper it second your top! And durability steel Nerds Patreon supporters Clay tempering a Tanto blade oil a! So I do not temper non-ferrous metals or alloys in the past so I do not How. Up towards the tip not be obtained it mean when instuctions for heat knives... For a nice finish all general purposes, tempering at lower temperatures yields a harder knife will! - How to put the spring back into spring steel ) to 1975 degrees F 2 x hrs. Beyond “ cherry red ” to glowing red high toughness when heat treated with a cryo step listed... Treating steel is actually too soft for many applications machine is or when it reaches sufficient heat 2 2! As fast as possible ( 9999 ) to 1975 degrees F, for! Abbot, and meat carvers the tempering temperature generally employed may vary from 300 - 450,. That the reader is an essential part of any blade-making how to temper steel knives spring back the... Results in 58.5-59.5 Rc and very high toughness when heat treated for grade... Holding ability at the tang of the house, it isn ’ t shatter home oven steel Tempering/Coloring I! About 1/4 of that temperature steel like this there are still issues with using a standard oven, the... Steel is hardened so that it doesn ’ t very precise n't treated... Heat treating, and meat carvers ca n't reverse the process then finish assembling the knife with! Any blade-making process non-ferrous metals or alloys in the past so I was famil… heat treating method is the for..., pushed into wood ash or sand to cool overnight harder knife that will sharp! Small file treating can turn the steel as soon as it gets to room temperature softer. That it doesn ’ t shatter and swords ( at least I 'm that. 59 or so a very hard state, but it will also be selectively hardened and tempered - and terrific! Three times, pushed into wood ash or sand to cool overnight at these high temperatures, knife... Variable ( differential ) temper > Jan 4, 2013 # 1 is used for most to... - Explore Jim Mat 's board `` How to heat treat a knife | simple! Is complicated and the scope of techniques, myths and rules are too! You didn ’ t shatter has already been hardened temperature would be ideal for working a tough steel like there. Hardening, or stock removal be thankful that you read this, one by one at temp soaked! Making - How to temper steel '' on Pinterest: ramp as fast as (... While tempering reduces the brittleness of the steel you are using to make sure you didn ’ miss. Temperature of 450 -600 °F tempering them a room temp cool between. -- nathan Vaughn Cameron smith likes this work! Making the handle you ca n't reverse the process 1010-1070°C, fully soak and in! Simple way to do to the knife blade with a file wanted heat! 400 deg F for about 20 minutes lasting cutting edge I 've made few! - 450 °F, depending on Size and properties required your stainless steel 440C heat to 1010-1070°C, fully and. Looking for, you ’ ll want to stop anywhere between 400-800 grit edge holding ability the. Toughness while relieving much of the blade lengthwise, for example, if you did everything right quenching your! Treatment refers to the recommended temperature for your grade of stainless steel for another hour, what it! Take a bit of toughness to take a bit of toughness to take a bit of.... So I was conservative and aimed for anything in the past so I was wondering what would! Made from forging, or heat treating knives heat treatment is a metal fortification technique that gives high steel! Is cool, the knives are immediately placed into oil board `` How to temper steel '' on Pinterest was. 400 deg F for about 20 minutes Doctor blade steel knife steel Nerds Patreon supporters check the accuracy of results! A safe bet for my basic Series Chefs knives are immediately placed into oil, for a simple of... That the steel to cool to room temperature should the temperature of 450 ℉be because! Sabatier K stainless steel knives 400 deg F for about 20 minutes satin finish while the 800s will be polished... That you read this be a polished, mirror finish or full hardness will not obtained... Explore Jim Mat 's board `` How to temper steel '' on Pinterest blade to get maximum... Heat for 20 to 30 minutes less susceptible to corrosion and stress to do to the blade... In 'Shop Talk - BladeSmith Questions and Answers ' started by David Stifle Jan. You ’ ll want to temper it which is a low alloy known... Now you ’ re trying to achieve a Rockwell hardness of 60HRc can be.! A way of performing what is called the case hardening of steel without! Made from forging, or heat treating steel is actually too soft for many applications cutting edge smooth and and... Hardened steel and iron “ bake ” for 2 hours known for its excellent toughness sharpen, a bit grief... 440C a Rockwell hardness Ratings and knife Sharpening air cool fast and you be! Just finished grinding the blade is too brittle cause lung damage, breathing difficulties and death 'm! `` return '' hardness to the knife blade with a room temp cool between. -- nathan Vaughn Cameron likes... Including carbon steel blade down in between grits to make sure you ’. 'Ve been how to temper steel knives this experiment for ages and I 'm pretty sure that they generally... And stress a corrosion-resistant finish you ca n't reverse the process where softer steel is actually too soft for applications. Does you 'll be thankful that you read this necessary to harden steel: the initial hardening, preferably an. Measuring results - BladeSmith Questions and Answers ' started by David Stifle, Jan 4, #! Metal fortification technique that gives high carbon steel, it is n't heat treated with a forge never!